Question: Prioritizing hair removal

[agent_dani]

I've been dealing with hair removal for a long time - nearly two years now, though far fewer sessions than that might suggest* - but now am faced with likely having to make choices due to finances - we're buying a house and will have to limit expenses. I'm trying to decide what's the best choice:

Face nearly done and I will be finishing that. I had hoped the last session would be the end but it wasn't.

One session has been done on my arms.

Chest is another I've planned but not begun. I could put this off but the trade-off is severely limited clothing choices - my hair there is very dark and skin very light so even immediately after shaving it's apparent. Anything more revealing then the men's polos I have would be out.

Others? I haven't even considered that yet.

While the ideal answer is all, it's not within my financial reality. Given such a choice, how would you prioritize.


* I think it's six sessions across that time, but most of that has been in the last several months; once I was able to get Saturday appointments the work scheduling problem was alleviated.

Comments

[sabowin.livejournal.com]

I am SO not an expert on trans things, but I think logically, you should prioritize the areas that born-women don't typically have hair, such as face and chest, as you've been doing, and not worry yet about armpits, legs, or "bikini area." All us women have to shave those areas or they'll be hairy, and women with dark hair will have visible stubble. If your arms are rather hairy, you might want to put those toward the top of the priority list, but if they're not too bad, I'd classify them with the armpits and legs. :-)

Ignorant question--does the HRT help with this issue at all?

[agent_dani]

I've been told that it does other than face but, after 1.5 years on one or another forms of HRT, I've not seen a significant change.

ETA: Face, arms, hands, and chest were all I was considering, but what I'll be able to afford over the next few years is a subset of that.

[rleyser.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't worry about your arms. I have very hairy arms and I just ignore it.

I would concentrate on your face and your chest.

[sabowin.livejournal.com]

Well, I guess you've got the right idea, starting with the most visible. Is bleaching and/or waxing an option until you can afford more permanent methods? I have fine, light hair, so I don't even shave my legs all that often, so I have no idea what I'm talking about. But no one had responded yet, so I felt the need to. :-) Hope you figure out something that works for you. :-)

[rena faye (from livejournal.com)]

agent: I would rotate between areas with priority to viability (chest, arms, underarms, legs) so that can work on getting it closer to finished without falling into all or nothing.

sabowin: a little bit, and very slowly

[agent_dani]

I had thought it was better to avoid lengthy periods between sessions on a given area.

[lietya.livejournal.com]

Again, not something I've dealt with personally, but removing facial hair made a HUGE difference to Shash, and that often seems to be one of the primary signals that a) catches people's attention [even for someone consistently read female, it's mocking-worthy] and b) the follow-up is that attention is more often going to lead to suspicion.

The chest hair, while I don't doubt your shopping experiences, I own plenty of opaque shirts and have seen lots more in stores. (By which I mean, I assume anything which doesn't show a black bra against pale skin probably won't reveal chest hair either.) It would rule out low-cut shirts, but there are some women's tops that come to the collarbone. So that would probably be the logical #2 priority.

Arms, well, there are quite a number of cis women with hairy arms. It's not ideal, but it's probably less likely to grab the eye. Legs ditto. Women who shave both are usually perceived as women with unfortunate hair issues rather than getting the double-take scrutiny.

[brianamj.livejournal.com]

Same here. I shave my legs, but ignore my arms. So I'd suggest focusing on the chest first.

[phonemonkey.livejournal.com]

In your position, I would do the chest hair next. Partly because chest stubble reads male in a way that arm and leg stubble do not, and partly because having to cover your breasts up to the collarbones all the time is going to limit your clothing choices. Shopping for a non-supermodel female body shape is a pain in the ass at the best of times, and having to automatically rule out half the tops in the store before even trying them on is not going to help.

However, don't get me wrong, the above is by no means intended to reveal universal truths but is based on the personal experience and biases of a girl who likes both showing and admiring cleavage. :-)

[agent_dani]

Here's how the hair goes on mine if I don't take other actions http://whitrel.com/hair-smaller.jpg

I do shave it, but the half-day of visibly irritated skin isn't so enjoyable.

[agent_dani]

Here's how the hair goes on mine if I don't take other actions: http://whitrel.com/hair-smaller.jpg

I do shave it, but the half-day of visibly irritated skin isn't so enjoyable.

[agent_dani]

Here's my arm hair if left unchecked: http://whitrel.com/hair-smaller.jpg I do shave it but the half day of visible irritation on my skin following that isn't exactly pleasant.

I have no doubt those shirts exist and would cover, but that's not completely the issue - it means passing up the majority, undoubted including many that I would love to wear.

Some choices just suck. ;)

[phonemonkey.livejournal.com]

*hug*

I know what you mean about the choices.

If you do want to do the arms first, you could always get a few dickies to cover your chest area. They're these things that Orthodox Jewish women wear if mainstream tops aren't modest enough: http://www.tzniusshopper.com/Accessories.html

[brianamj.livejournal.com]

Darker than mine, but just as hairy. Bleach it until you can afford it again. :-)

[rleyser.livejournal.com]

Okay, darker and thicker then mine, but not by much!

I think bleaching or waxing are good suggestions.

[lietya.livejournal.com]

Yeah, sometimes they really do. :(

I admit that my perspective is no doubt skewed by my extended Italian family featuring mostly women with gorilla arms, but that still doesn't look outside of cis norms. Outside of what's considered *desirable,* but you really don't want me getting started on my feminist rant about how society doesn't like to admit women are mammals.

Same thing for the shirts; I was mostly suggesting that for the interim stage if you did choose to work on your chest next. (I generally shop for that sort of shirt - opaque and to the collarbone - because I am looking to conceal any potential cleavage, but of course you'd rather show it off, eventually!)

*hugs*

[noirem.livejournal.com]

as a hirsute woman with a beard, mustache, sideburns, chest hair, and dark arm hair, I vote face (duh) and chest. I'm a waxer rather than a bleacher 'cause long, light hairs are still hairs. Also waxing, pulling out by the roots, will reduce the thickness of the hair and stunt its growth. I've noticed a marked improvement, even just doing it half a dozen times. I use Nads, which is a sugar syrup. I just give it a quick zap in the microwave to make it a little runny (not hot! though I like the sting of hot wax) and it's good to go. Don't store it in the bathroom - exposure to moisture can cause it to crystalize. The only downside of waxing, assuming you're not hypersensitive to pain - and the more you do it the less it hurts, is that you have to let the hair grow out about a bit before you can do it again.

If you're going to wax an area that you haven't before/recently, use a beard trimmer to trim the hairs down to about a cm. If hairs are longer they stick to the wax/sugar oddly and it hurts a _lot_. Learn from my mistakes.

In my experience, arms and face are reasonably easy to do yourself. For eyebrows, assuming you want a more refined shape than God or laser treatment have gifted you, I would pay a professional to get the shape right and then do maintenance with tweezers. It's really difficult to get them even and know when to stop.

Legs are more difficult, which is why I know the more waxed areas are less hairy than the less waxed areas :o) My general approach to waxing my legs is that I wax what I can and shave the rest. Same for any little patches I miss on my arms, actually.

[agent_dani]

but you really don't want me getting started on my feminist rant about how society doesn't like to admit women are mammals.

While I get that and subscribe to the philosophy, there's always the question of how much I'm willing to personally be the agent of that social change - to relentlessly fight those battles myself. And, of course, there exists how much that has been focused on trans bodies.

that still doesn't look outside of cis norms.

I have to admit having become uncomfortable with that line of reasoning because of where it too easily goes. Once picked apart, trait-by-trait, property-by-property, I would wager we could say my body has always been "within the normal cis woman range." The reality is far more complex than that, to the point that I consider such approaches to be of little value when it comes to my own appearance.

As for shirts, I feel we're talking at angles. There's a significant range between shirts that reveal nothing below the collar bone and ones that show cleavage. windrdr, for example, never shows cleavage yet many of her shirts would have that problem. I actually have no interest in ever showing cleavage; I'm not remotely comfortable with that level of exposure in any situation (and, given 1.5 years on HRT, I doubt I shall ever have enough to do so if I wanted.)

[lietya.livejournal.com]

I don't blame you at all for not wanting to fight those battles; it's a choice of mine, but not intended to suggest it should be one of yours. (The rant is in fact tangential here, but it'd be aimed at the rest of society for making you feel inadequate, not at you. Which of course is no consolation at all in the societal reality as it currently exists.)

And while I am aware of how risky that discussion becomes farther down the path... you're in the process of modifying your body so as to be less variant from the midpoint of cis norms, in effect. (That's *absolutely* your right and there is no judgment intended on the choice.) It seems kind of impossible to do that without at least thinking about the concept, which is why I was willing to mention it, with the implied understanding that neither of us sees any validity in actually going too far down that slippery slope. I do agree completely that it fast loses value and nuance.

In any case, as you've said, it's about some difficult choices; if you can't do everything, you'll have to decide which variation bothers you the most and/or has the most value to you in terms of convenience and joy to resolve. I'm certainly never going to claim I'd have ANY right to criticize that decision - I'm attempting to clarify, not arguing you out of anything.

And the only reason for saying anything was that you have to choose which to focus on first; at no point would I suggest [or think] that "within norms" is the same as "not worth altering." I am sorry if it sounded that way - what I meant was "perhaps do the arms second," NOT "never get there at all."

Edit to add : and when I say "cis norms," I do mean *average,* not "occurs on at least one cis woman somewhere on this planet." I think that may be partly why we've been talking past each other a bit, because to clarify, I believe there are plenty of cis women who are *not* within the expected norm for any given feature, either. (There is, of course, nothing wrong with them and I'm not calling them "unnatural," but nobody's average at every single one of the million traits that can make up a person. Heck, I'm squarely outside of cis female norms for bust size and weight, just to name a couple off the top of my head!)

There is a difference for some women. :) Anything more than an inch below my collarbone will show at least a hint of cleavage on me. Unless I'm pairing it with a deliberately minimizing bra, when I can sometimes get away with 2-3 inches (but I don't do that often as such bras are painful). So almost everything I shop for is indeed that high-necked. And I apologize, sincerely, for assuming you'd like to show it off; I fucked up badly there in generalizing from other women I know.

[agent_dani]

Lest I do what I may already have, I really do appreciate your input. Part of it is me working through it, and I think focusing on chest after face (and face ought to be done very soon) is probably what I will do.

I really appreciate you sharing your experiences with shirts. windrdr's experience is different, but her bra choice is also rather different - underwire bras, when fitting properly, while not necessarily minimizing bustline do usually mean lack of cleavage.

[lietya.livejournal.com]

I apologize if I've come across as beleaguering you, too, because I tend to be... thorough outside of Twitter. :) Doesn't mean I would ever think I had any right to harass you. (I've also sort of answered the question "what would *you* do," which - while it is what you asked - is not necessarily what you meant. I screw up on that one a lot.)

Heh. Underwire on me is usually *obscene.* I tried on a couple today, in fact, and it ends up looking like the world's most aggressive push-up. However, I think that's because most underwires do push me up and together. Boobs are weird!

[agent_dani]

Well, I did ask, so it is only fair! As I noted to you elsewhere, "...and patient with those whose counsel you seek."

Interesting. I think windrdr might be interested in the sort you find and, likely, you hers. She goes to a specialty shop that is in the Triangle region which does deal with larger cup sizes, mostly importing from the UK.

[lietya.livejournal.com]

I appreciate that - sincerely, as some people do (justifiably) feel a trifle plagued when I get going.

Oooh, a specialty shop with UK bras does sound wonderful! No wonder she's finding some amazing options. I'm mostly wearing one of the few Lane Bryant bras with no underwire, but the one I tried on today was their T-shirt bra. Too bad; it's really very pretty. I even have bra calling itself a "minimizer" (brand I don't recall) that actually makes me both more aggressively perky and cleavage-y than the LB wire-free!

[agent_dani]

Huh, and here it's one of the things I love about you.

If/when you visit the Triangle, we'll have to be sure you get there! I also need windrdr to tell me where they are. Their site is here but when I checked it a few days ago they hadn't updated it - they still listed their former location in Raleigh. The main disadvantage is that she's only ever once found a bra for less than $100 there, usually a good bit over.

[lietya.livejournal.com]

Awww! *blush* Not many people say that, so it is in turn one reason why I am lucky to have you as a friend. :)

Oh, someday, that sounds wonderful... We do still hope to do some traveling in a year or two, when stuff settles down again.

The price is not ideal, but for that quality of work it's more than worth it.

[agent_dani]

I think I've said elsewhere but I'll repeat it here: one of the things I've really loved about social networking is getting to know so many incredibly strong women such as you.

We'll even be able to provide space for you to stay once we have the house, and it's pretty centrally located (perhaps 3 miles away from I-85.)

A few years ago, windrdr apologized to me for how much she spent on bras. I told her that I consider them a necessity - her not being in pain is very important.

[lietya.livejournal.com]

I'll heartily second that - you are among the strongest women I know, but social networking in general has allowed me to meet some amazing people.

Oh, that's right, you can start plans around the house now. :) Yay!! Of course I'd love to see it in any case (and I forget if we explicitly offered a reciprocal invitation, but you have one - our guest room is small and often full of cats, but it's yours).

Indeed, although that was very thoughtful of you; a surprising number of non-bra-needing people [which you were back then, based on the timeline?] don't realize that a bad one *can* mean being in constant pain. It's not always the most fun thing in the world to spend money on, but you're right that if someone needs it, that's a necessity by definition. I actually would happily go braless, mind you, but the rest of the world might object. ;)

[agent_dani]

Now it's my turn to blush. I've never really felt that but I guess I've earned a place on that list. :)

Yep, and we're looking forward to it! I do recall you offering in a discussion a while ago.

For her, going braless isn't possible; it means pain. We had a conversation at one point about her interest in a robe she liked. I suggested she buy it and she said it was pointless - she'd only wear it if she was at least sitting up, and if she was for any real length of time, she'd have to have a bra on, and if she did that it's just as well she go ahead and dress.

I may not have understood how it felt, but I understood that it meant the difference between my partner being in rather severe pain or comfort. That meant a great deal to me in spite of me not then wearing bras.

[lynncc.livejournal.com]

My take is target the neckline area of the upper chest for laser removal and use waxing on the hands and arms. There are so many pretty clothing choices that will open up if you are less self conscious of the neckline area. Legs aren't even on the radar.

[lietya.livejournal.com]

You certainly have. Sometimes, simply not being crushed takes more strength than it seems (and you're making progress despite that).

A lot of women say the same as she does, and I sympathize greatly; I can't imagine how miserable I would be if bras were the *best* option. That's so sad about the robe. :(

That's still more thoughtful and perceptive than some people manage, remarkably. Your care for her no doubt was appreciated.

[agent_dani]

She didn't realize it until she finally got bras that fit properly, which was only after we moved to NC and found a shop that didn't use the add-5" method. The short form is that she suddenly stopped experiencing pain that she hadn't previously realized was there.

I've had similar experiences, really. I began wearing bras in August when it became painful to hit bumps on my commute. However, I was quickly amazed that general back pain disappeared.

Thank you. :) It sucks that just doing the right thing is so exceptional.